A place for Liam to post essays, comments, diatribes and rants on life in general.

Those fond of Liam's humor essays, they have been moved here.

Monday, June 20, 2005

Durbin

Wow, it's difficult to find time to write, or even form a coherent thought, with four children running around the house. I do plan to get back to more of the essays on why I think Bush is so damaging, I apologize that it's taking longer than I'd hoped. However, here's something I have to say...

This week, I've been reading more and more people condemning Dick Durbin for his comments on the Senate floor. People are up in arms over his comments likening some of the actions being undertaken at Guantanamo Bay to other evil actions taken by other humans.

But once again, people are taking issue with the text and ignoring the fact that the MESSAGE may be completely legitimate. Read the text again:

"If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime -- Pol Pot or others -- that had no concern for human beings. Sadly, that is not the case. This as the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners."

He had just read a list of attrocities from the same memo I posted snippets of last week, written by an FBI observer. Let us, for the moment, ignore the concluding lines of Mr. Durbin's commentary and read what went before it:

"On a couple of occasions, I entered interview rooms to find a detainee chained hand and foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food or water. Most times they urinated or defecated on themselves, and had been left there for 18-24 hours or more. On one occasion, the air conditioning had been turned down so far and the temperature was so cold in the room, that the barefooted detainee was shaking with cold. . . . On another occasion, the [air conditioner] had been turned off, making the temperature in the unventilated room well over 100 degrees. The detainee was almost unconscious on the floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his hair out throughout the night. On another occasion, not only was the temperature unbearably hot, but extremely loud rap music was being played in the room, and had been since the day before, with the detainee chained hand and foot in the fetal position on the tile floor."

My first thought is: This is a heck of a far cry from the gourmet-food-and-day-spa Guantanamo that was described for us last week by Congressman Duncan Hunter.

But think about that paragraph. Think about whether you think that treatment is in any way legitimate or fair. Would you be surprised to hear about such treatment of prisoners within a Soviet gulag? If we hadn't become so desensitized to abuses and so politically polarized by this war, would you really have believed that the United States could actually treat people this way, a country founded on "certain inalienable rights" that our founding documents list as being "endowed by their creator" on "all men"?

Durbin's comments at no point say that Guantanamo is necessarily universally as bad as a Soviet gulag, or something under the Nazis or Pol Pot. He described this particular report as sounding like something one might have heard of from those places. And he's right. It DOES sound like that.

But unless there's some other quote of Durbin's somewhere, of which I am not aware, where he says something like "Guantanamo Bay is just another Soviet gulag", instead of merely comparing certain heinous acts AT Guantanamo Bay to a Soviet gulag... it's time to move along.

[This weekend, reports came out of a torture chamber in Iraq that was clearly far more heinous than Guantanamo Bay. I understand that, and I (and from reading it, I assume Senator Durbin) are not saying that we're worse, or even as bad, as other instances of torture. I continue to maintain that a country founded on the principles ours was founded on, and whose citizens consider themselves a moral icon that everyone else should follow needs to be held to a higher standard. In a strict sense, is what we did worse (or even as bad) as what was done in Iraq, the gulags, or any of the other places up for discussion? Certainly not. But are we, as a nation, all the more reprehenisble in our hypocrisy for speaking out against human rights abuses while practicing them? Yes.

This doesn't have to be a contest. The fact that someone else cheated doesn't make your own cheating OK, and we are first and foremost responsible for our own conduct. Let's clean up our own act, and then we can start worrying about other people's. -- Liam]


Copyright (c) June 20, 2005 by Liam Johnson. http://www.liamjohnson.net

11 Comments:

Blogger Liam said...

Here is a great commentary on Huffington Post that takes a different view on the same Durbin mess.

To whit, why is it perfectly acceptable for Rick Santorum to compare Democrats to Hitler a month ago, but worthy of censure when Dick Durbin does it in the other direction?

According to this piece, Tom DeLay called the EPA "the Gestapo", Senator Jeff Sessions called stem cell research similar to "Nazi Germany's abuses of science" and Phil Graham and Grover Norquist referred to several Democratic tax plans as equivalent to what Nazis did.

And yet when we get into an area of behavior that bears at least SOME resemblance to the behavior of the Nazis, suddenly the comments are outrageous and worthy of censure?

Liam.

Monday, June 20, 2005 10:15:00 AM

 
Blogger Ralph said...

Santorum aplogized immediately even though the comparison to Nazi Germany was very indirect compared to Durban's slam.

Monday, June 20, 2005 1:20:00 PM

 
Blogger Liam said...

Perhaps. But you didn't comment on the substance of my original post.

The comment is entirely valid. Durbin never says Guantanamo *IS* a Soviet gulag, he says that the FBI memo describing conditions there sounds more like a Soviet gulag than like something the U.S. should be a party to.

And he's right. But of course being right doesn't seem to count for much in Washington any more.

If it ever did.

Liam.

Monday, June 20, 2005 1:40:00 PM

 
Blogger Ralph said...

How is this unsubstantiated report anything like the millions who died in a Gulog?

Monday, June 20, 2005 7:14:00 PM

 
Blogger Liam said...

Ralph, you are clearly not stupid, you know better than that.

READ THE QUOTE.

"If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent...you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis".

First off, the report came from the FBI, hardly a hotbed of unsubstantiated nonsense. EVEN IF it turned out to be false (and I have a hard time believing the FBI would lie about something like this), there's every reason to trust an FBI report.

And Durbin's quote is quite clear. This report sounds like something done by Nazis or in Soviet gulags. And it does.

The quote, as made, is entirely legitimate. If I heard that read without any attribution, I would assume they were talking about Saddam Hussein's torture houses, or the sources he lists, or any of a number of other places. I would not believe (or wouldn't have until recently) that this was the United States doing this.

He didn't say Guantanamo Bay is a Soviet Gulag. He didn't say that the American Military was the SS. He said that this report SOUNDED like that. He was clearly trying to point out that we should be EMBARASSED as a nation to be using any of the same tactics found in a Gulag.

I'm really getting sick of the invalid style of debate I'm seeing more and more of: Take a real and reasonable statement, engage in extreme hyperbole, then attribute the now-rediculous expanded quote or meaning to the original speaker, and refuse to read what the speaker really said.

I got really annoyed with it a week or two ago when Liberals were saying that Bush was admitting to propaganda, and I'm getting really annoyed with it now.

When did vocalizing dissent become a crime in this country? When did "party line" replace "truth" as the only acceptable form of speech? When did we bring in Pravda and Tass to run our news?

Liam.

Monday, June 20, 2005 7:45:00 PM

 
Blogger OTTMANN said...

Everyone knows what Durbin said. Had the same thing been said by a republican, democrats and lib media would be having conniption fits for his ouster. Remember Trent Lott?

Dems had a cow and Lott stepped down. Now the libs act like what Durbin said was no big deal.

But the reality is that it incites the enemy, and that is called treason! Durbin should step down now.

Monday, June 20, 2005 10:58:00 PM

 
Blogger Liam said...

That is utter BS, Ottman. If you think Durbin should step down for his comments, then clearly Bush should as well, for getting on national TV and telling the insurgents to "Bring It On". *THAT* is inciting the enemy. It is directly telling them to attack us.

Expressing your opinion in this country is called Freedom of Speech, it's a right guaranteed by our Constitution. Read it sometime. That freedom isn't supposed to be abridged because someone somewhere might take offense and do something unreasonable. The whole POINT of that freedom is that even unpopular speech is protected.

Oh, and... perhaps if these things weren't actually HAPPENING under our watch, both at Guantanamo Bay and with the CIA program of shipping off people to be interrogated in other, less civilized countries, then I might buy your argument. But our torturing Muslim prisoners incites other Muslims. Pointing it out on the floor of the Senate in the hopes of perhaps RECTIFYING the situation isn't inciting. It's trying to fix something majorly broken in our system.

Oh, and for the record, I don't think Lott should have had to step down over this. I'm not sure he should even have had to apologize, although I can see where his remarks might have been considered racially insensitive. But c'mon, praising someone at a party in that person's honor? Surely no one expected that.

And similar things have been said by Republicans. In my original essay, I pointed out several of them. Based on watching the news lately, it appears that we have Hitler and other high-ranking Nazis running around in droves these days. You can't turn around without someone comparing someone else to Hitler.

Why is it that everyone is happy to debate the SURFACE of what Durbin said, but no one is particularly offended by the facts contained IN it?

Given what those facts are, *THAT* is completely un-American.

Liam.

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 7:29:00 AM

 
Blogger Ralph said...

Liam,
Chill out here. You are pleased as punch when anyone slams the US war effort. And incredulous when anyone thinks that the people imprisoned at GITMO would like nothing better than to kill us all. Bush hatred is a debilitating afliction.

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 10:35:00 AM

 
Blogger Liam said...

Not entirely true, Ralph. I don't dispute that at least SOME of the people being held at Guantanamo Bay are guilty of what we suspect them of, and that we have every right to try, convict and punish them. I don't think they're all innocents, I think that *WE* have a moral obligation to live up to our core philosophies and actually charge them with something and try them. That's a far cry from being incredulous about the idea.

There are, however, a number of very credible reports that at least SOME of the detainees are NOT terrorists, never HAVE been terrorists, and if let go would go back to their lives and never BE terrorists. That's why we need to bring charges and have trials, so that we can FAIRLY punish the ones who really are enemies of our country, and free the ones who turn out to be innocent.

But again, you're resorting to ad hominem attacks rather than actually debate the merits of what I said. There *IS* a set of FBI memos, they *DO* detail abuses at Guantanamo Bay, and they *DO* resemble something that might have happened under Soviet Gulags, Nazi prison camps or Hussein torture chambers. Since these are FACTS, I guess it's easier for you to try to malign me than to actually debate the argument on its merits.

Oh, and I don't think Bush hatred is any more debilitating than Clinton hatred was. Take that as you will.

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 11:39:00 AM

 
Blogger Ralph said...

I don't (and never have) hated Clinton. He is a creature of incredible talents and weaknesses. It will be fascinating to read hour history records him once we get past the current emotion...but I digress..What is the provenance of this memo (where do you get more than one?) and what is their date? And finally, the alleged tortures are pretty lame. Sadam knew how to torture. I hope the upcoming trial will show us what real bad guys do.

Wednesday, June 22, 2005 1:50:00 PM

 
Blogger Liam said...

You may not have hated Clinton, and if you didn't, then I apologize for ascribing to you a viewpoint which was not yours. However, a lot of Republicans did, as evidenced by the extreme extent to which they were willing to go to take him down. But we're not discussing Clinton.

As to the torture, I forget where I've said what (I post on a number of blogs) so I hope I'm not repeating myself, but I'm not saying we're doing even as much mistreatment as others have done. I'm saying that we believe ourselves to be morally superior, and point to our freedoms and rights as evidence of that fact. If Saddam Hussein never claimed he felt that torture was wrong, that doesn't make it not so, but it certainly makes him less hypocritical in this regard. If we're going to hold ourselves up as examples of proper moral behavior, we have to behave in a proper moral way, and that makes mistreatment of prisoners on our part all the more odeous, not for the actions themselves, but for how they betray and erode our core principles. We have to give all prisoners (from common criminals all the way up to the worst butchers) the same rights that we say all men deserve, or we damage ourselves. Not them, US. Two wrongs don't make a right, we're taught that at very young ages. We should live it.

As to the Downing Street Memos, the reason I refer in the plural is that a second one came to light recently. Both seem to point to Bush and Blair and their close confidants holding meetings trying to figure out how to create a justification for war, at the same time that Bush was telling the country and the Congress that he was doing everything in his power to give diplomacy a chance to work. The first "memo" is minutes from a meeting on July 23, 2002. The second was written a few days before, as "prep" for the meetings on the 23rd.

Revisionists walk around saying that "pretty much everyone believed that Saddam had WMDs", but my recollection from the time period was that in fact most of us were listening to Hans Blix, who was saying "I'm pretty sure they're not there".

An article on the second memo can be found here and the memo itself on the London Times website here. The original memo is all over the blogsphere, but just to find an example of it, as originally reported by the London Times, go here.

Liam.

Wednesday, June 22, 2005 7:53:00 PM

 

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